mozilla :: #seamonkey

16 Mar 2017
07:21frg_awayhello ewong
07:22ewongfrg_away: hi there! Good morning!
07:22frg_awaymorning IanN|Away
07:24opalsecond day with seamonkey, seems great but for a few addon incompatibilities
07:24opalrelatively minor things like tab management; i can probably figure it out with enough poking around
07:25opaltabs seem to be handled very differently from firefox
07:25frg_awayopal| yes Some thing justwon't work because of differences in the gui among others. tabbrowser needs a few things added too.
07:27opalyeah exactly, with firefox i used Tab Mix Plus to get different colours depending on tab status (unloaded, unread) as well as multiline tab bar that i could scroll through
07:27frg_awayHi Mc
07:27opalbeen tweaking userchrome.css but i may have to actually change the chrome itself to get it working as expected
07:28opali know enough about firefox and xml to be able to do it if i need to lol
07:28opalwhat made me switch is how the new versions of firefox are steadily becoming worse
07:28opalseamonkey seems real solid in comparison
07:30Mchi frg_away and all :-) looks down
07:31frg_awayopal. We are needing devs or therre won't be much left of SeaMonkey in about 1 to 2 years. So if you want to help you are welcome.
07:34opalok i'll certainly contribute patches if i come across anything, thanks for letting me know
07:35Mcopal: perhaps you can convince onemen that we need TMP for seamonkey too. i tried it years ago
07:36frg_awayopal: We won't run out of bugs soon :) Most are old. and a lot obsolete The worst ones affecting the current release are in bug 1345770
07:36thebotBug nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, SeaMonkey 2.52 malfunctions/errors
07:37opali'll read that and see if i can do anything about some of the bugs
07:37opalthere's an old bug i filed for chatzilla too lol
07:37ewongMc :
07:37thebotBug 1347753 blo, --, ---, nobody, NEW, ovh renewals
07:38opal is the issue i filed for cz
07:38thebotBug 1060871 nor, --, ---, rginda, NEW, Channel types not beginning with # are not received properly
07:38opali would have looked into it more but i havent used chatzilla in years
07:42Mcewong: bad, akalla builds are hosted there as you know
07:42ewongMc ;/
07:44opalsame behaviour as in firefox, dont know why its a bug specific to seamonkey:
07:44thebotBug 82676 min, --, Future, akkzilla, NEW, Find Dialog can&#39;t find quotes generated by <q>
07:46frg_awayopal: If you need help setting up a dev environment just let me know.
07:46opalok thanks... my first step would probably be to ditch windows lol
07:46opalbut i&#39;m stuck with it at least for now
07:47opali have a debian desktop but it&#39;s offline right now, cant do much about that til i move out
07:47opalmight be able to do development/debugging on there offline though
07:49frg_away_opal: probably a Gecko bug but you never know until you look into it. There is always a chance that its done in browser itself.
07:50opalit would be nice to have psuedoelement selection and search so i may look at that again
07:50opalwonder how other browsers handle it
07:51frg_awayopal: I have setup guide for Windows if you want it. Do all compiling in a vm. Debian probably won&#39;t work without a lot of manual tweaks. Switches to Cent OS 7 but even there I have problems and had to disable accessability. IanN|Away is compiling on Fedora and rsx11m on OpenSuse.
07:54opalah ok
08:26ewongIan&#39;s on a Fedora system?
08:27XogiumI&#39;m on archlinux.. I&#39;d compile it and help testing if I had the resources
08:27Xogiumbut that won&#39;t really work with a 2 ghz dualcore and 2 gb ram :/
08:27frg_awayewong: as far as I know yes.
08:28ewongXogium: yeah.. won&#39;t work. I tried it on my 2GB Slackware.. slogged so much that it choked with a linking error
08:29XogiumI ended up doing a blunder on my sbc yesterday.. That one&#39;s quadcore at 1.5 ghz with 2 gb ram. xz -T 0 -9k. Oops. Ran out of memory so badly the hardware watchdog forced to board to reboot
08:29Xogiumthe board
08:31Xogiumtook barely 30 seconds before it happened lol
08:31Xogiumconsidering what I was trying to compress, that&#39;s no surprise..
08:32Xogiumended up doing xz -T 0 -k instead lol
08:32ewonganyone emailed Ratty lately?
08:32Xogiumfinished compressing 90 gb into 7.1 gb archive after 3 hours
08:35frg_awayXogium: Why don&#39;t you buy more ram? used ram should be dirt cheap
08:35ewongunless the mobo is obsolete and uses DDR2 stuff
08:36Xogiumin case of the sbc, well I can&#39;t, that bad but heh, and in case of the laptop, well I probably can buy more ram, but for me $100 and something for 2x4 gb sounds like a lot :/ I don&#39;t have much money, and I&#39;d be rather annoyed if it doesn&#39;t work
08:37frg_awayXogium: is it ddr2 or ddr3?
08:37Xogiumddr3 at 1066 mhz
08:37Xogiumwith a max of 8 gb supported by the motherboard
08:41frg_away8 GB is around $50 and 4 around $20 for used memory from ebay. For 8 GB you just need to check the ranking. My x200 needed 2Rx8. Must not be low power either. I bought DDR3-1333. With 4GB you should be good.
08:42Xogiumnods.. The motherboard will probably lower the frequency anyway if it only supports 1066..
08:43frg_awayogium: there are different timings for each frequency in the memories eeprom
08:45XogiumI&#39;ll need to buy it and to go somewhere to have a guy that knows that to put it in the laptop though.. I know nothing about that, and I&#39;d rather not damage components
08:45Xogiumspecially since I can&#39;t see how the thing are all setup
08:46frg_awayNo freind who can do it for you?
08:46Xogiumnop. Don&#39;t have any friend
08:46ewongXogium: what kinda laptop?
08:46Xogiumlenovo thinkpad l412
08:47ewongXogium: existing 2GB right? there should be a panel that you can unscrew to access the first memory slot
08:47Xogiumnods, 2 gb here
08:47ewongit&#39;s only one screw (if the 1412 has the same style as my thinkpads)
08:48ewongthen you buy the ddr3 and plug it in.
08:48ewongor if there&#39;s a 2GB there.. replace it.
08:48ewongit gets a bit more convoluted if you need more as you need to take out a lot more screws
08:49XogiumI know it has 2 slots for memory
08:49ewongthe first slot is easier to access so try that
08:50ewongXogium: there should be a small icon that points out where the memory chip is
08:50Xogiumhuh huh, thing is, I won&#39;t be able to see it
08:50* Xogium grins
08:50ewongmy bad
08:50Xogiumno worries
08:51XogiumI like joking on that topic, I don&#39;t really mind
08:52Xogiummy mother said, love makes us blind. To which I replied, oof, then she&#39;ll have nothing to do, I&#39;m already blind
08:53ewongXogium: how are you typing the stuff in? via speech or some special keyboard that has braille on the keys?
08:54Xogiumnah, learned the keyboard by heart
08:55Xogiumused to type with the same keyboard but with some kind of converter that would allow me to type the same thing as you, but with the key of a braille device.. Then I learned the &#39;normal&#39; keyboard
08:56ewongthat is nifty!
08:57frg_awayXogium: Probably the same memory as in an X200 T500
08:57Xogiumyeah :D
08:59Xogiumand then there&#39;s the braille display of course.. Not everyone that can get one, sadly, as they think blind folks to be some sort of money bags
09:00frg_awaySpecs looks like the T410/T510/X201 is the closed match.
09:00XogiumI only got mine because they were about to throw it away with the excuse that &#39;it doesn&#39;t work in windows anymore&#39;. Sure won&#39;t, as they stopped distributing the required driver a hell of a long time ago. Doesn&#39;t meant that in linux, it stopped working
09:03Xogiumthat blasted thing is costing $15000
09:03Xogiumand they are throwing them away, poof, just like that, because they no longer work
09:03ewongunfortunately, you can&#39;t compile SM 2.x anymore.. unless you go back to 2.0.x I think
09:03frg_away_Xogium you mean 1500 or not?
09:04Xogiumfrg_away_: nah. Braille display costs $15000
09:04Xogiumnot all of them, but the best ones.. That means, the one that aren&#39;t so cheap that they&#39;ll break because you lose your grip on them 1 ft above the floor in their protective case
09:05frg_awaymobile connection is great today goes down every 30 minutes :)
09:06XogiumI say that cause it happened to me
09:09Xogiumand that, is apart from the screen reader everyone want you to have when you are on windows. Before 2007, there was *no* free screen reader
09:10Xogiumand most blind folks still buy it anyway, or their person assigned to help them tells them that the free one is crap
09:11Xogiuma personnal licence for this one screen reader is about.. $1600 if I remember right, maybe it&#39;s more. Upgrades are not free either
09:13Xogiumoh and just to make fun of you, licencing os done on a pair-machine way
09:13Xogiumone licence per machine
09:14frg_awayXogium as long as the support does really support it ...
09:15Xogiumoh, you have documentation, sure. But even that is not free. A sd card with tutorials and things like that, soled separately from the required player to play that particular file format, is $850
09:17XogiumI&#39;ll apss my turn and grab that free screen reader, thank you very much
09:19Xogiumthere are cracks for that screen reader on LOL
09:20Xogiumthe company is freedom scientific, in case you want to have a look :p
09:20Xogiumfreedom.. Ha ha ha
09:21Xogiumsorry, just finding this really funny considering their software is closed sources, non-free, and it costs a ton of money
09:32Mcto make it clear, we can&#39;t download akalla builds atm. the site is unavailable. see bug 1347753
09:32McAdrian isn&#39;t on the cc list there, so he might not know it yet
09:32thebotBug blo, --, ---, hmitsch, NEW, ovh renewals
09:34opalim surprised theres no working addons (that i could find) to display tabs in the sidebar
09:34opali did the multiline userchrome.css hack and that should work for now, but i normally have a hundred tabs lying around so that could get annoying in the future
09:34opalsince i cant scroll
09:34Mcopal: there is a vertical tabbar extension though
09:35opalyeah i saw but i tried and it didnt seem to work for me
09:35opali tried a few actually
09:35Mcit works here and has 67 users atm
09:36Mc is the one
09:36opaloh i dont think ive tried that one
09:37Mcok :-)
09:37opalstrange i didnt find it in my search
09:37opalbut thanks
09:38opalyeah that works
09:38opalnot exactly the &quot;sidebar&quot; but it reminds me of tree style tabs i had years ago
09:38opalworks well enough
09:53Mcewong|away, frg_away: good news about akalla builds hosting in bug 1347863
09:53thebotBug nor, --, ---, hmitsch, NEW, OVH Renewal: Hosting extension for 3 months (March 2017)
10:14frg_awayMc: Did they ran out of monkey because Mrs. Baker needed a raise? :D
10:26Mcfrg_away: sure, haha
10:27frg_awayMc. An they wont run out of monkeys anytime soon. Money on the other hand...
10:29Mcmoney for monkey would be fine :-)
10:31Xogiumif they run out of money, they&#39;ll have nothing to feed to poor monkeys
10:31frg_awayshort reboot for updates
13:22NewTobinParadigm!seen RattyAway
13:22thebotrattyaway was last seen 2 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes and 30 seconds ago, changing nick to Ratty .
13:22NewTobinParadigm!seen Ratty90
13:22thebotratty90 was last seen 2 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes and 26 seconds ago, saying &#39;um what was his nick?&#39; in #seamonkey.
13:22NewTobinParadigm!seen Ratty
13:22thebotratty was last seen 2 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 30 minutes and 55 seconds ago, saying &#39;> It supports control from your phone if you are so addicted to the glow you need to play with your system from across the room. &#39; in #seamonkey.
13:22NewTobinParadigm!seen NeilAway
13:22thebotneilaway was last seen 60 weeks, 4 days, 12 hours, 36 minutes and 38 seconds ago, saying &#39;* NeilAway browses his chaos privately&#39; in #seamonkey.
13:23NewTobinParadigmover a year
13:23NewTobinParadigmWhere is your project Leader guys
13:25tonymecNewTobinParadigm: busy. IIUC IanN|Away is filling in for him, but also quite busy
13:25NewTobinParadigmbusy with what?
13:26XogiumNewTobinParadigm: huh.. Life ?
13:26NewTobinParadigmand what about SeaMonkey?
13:26Xogiumyou act as if there&#39;s only seamonkey in their lives..
13:26* Xogium shrugs
13:27NewTobinParadigmI don&#39;t know you, Xogium
13:28Xogiumjust a regular user that understand that seamonkey isn&#39;t everything in the lives of its devs, but nevermind. Don&#39;t mind me
13:29tonymecNewTobinParadigm: Neil with a cange in job, or at least tasks IIUC. Ian similar but still allows a few moments for Sm now and then IIUC. I think ewong and frg are minding the shop for bugs severe enough to make builds fail...
13:30frg_awayWe do what we can but there is the paid work and other hobbies and tasks. Its not a SeaMonkey only life. So far we manage barely.
13:30NewTobinParadigmHi, I am Matt A. Tobin former Administrator and Coordinator of Secondary Services at the Pale Moon project.. also former Occasional Contributor and Bug Triage Volunteer here at this project.. Also General Mozilla Agitator..
13:31NewTobinParadigmfrg_away: I never said it was..
13:31NewTobinParadigmBut a year man..
13:31NewTobinParadigmNot to mention this time is critical
13:31NewTobinParadigmand this project needs strong leadership
13:31NewTobinParadigmespecially now
13:31NewTobinParadigmthere are decisions to be made
13:31NewTobinParadigmplans to be planned..
13:32NewTobinParadigmplans that should have been planned nearly 3 years ago
13:32NewTobinParadigmbut now it is critical
13:32NewTobinParadigmbeyond critical
13:32Xogiumyou just don&#39;t know what can happen in life, that&#39;s all. Look at the espeak dev. No one knows what actually happened to him. For all we know, he&#39;s presumed dead. Not saying he is, but you never know
13:33Xogiumthat&#39;s just an example
13:33NewTobinParadigmWhen is the next status meeting?
13:35NewTobinParadigmThis sunday?
13:36tonymecNewT: 2017-03-19
13:36tonymecNewTobinParadigm: --^
13:37tonymecfrg_away: there is sth wrong with cZ prefs starting with yesterday&#39;s Sm 2.52a1 nightly. Shall I repeat here (or in /query to you) what I said in #chatzilla ? cZ version unchanged,
13:38NewTobinParadigmAre you guys not on ESR yet?
13:38NewTobinParadigmcause last version I downloaded was built from gecko 49
13:39NewTobinParadigmHow are you keeping users secured with sec bugs?
13:40NewTobinParadigmwithout regular platform updates to cover the dozens of sec bugs mozilla creates by pointless and unsafe refactoring.. a non-esr train must be kept updated with platform releases
13:41frgtonymec: if there isn&#39;t a bug yet best send me an email. On the laptop today and not building. Will see if I can look into it during the weekend.
13:41NewTobinParadigmYou know that
13:42tonymecNewTobinParadigm: Sm 2.49 release is scheduled for gecko 52.0 ESR. Current Sm &quot;stable&quot; release is 2.46 (Gecko 2.49).
13:42frgNewTobinParadigm: Currently a doller shart and late with updates. ewong fight the build process as usual.
13:42tonymecs/Gecko 2.49/Gecko 49.0/
13:42NewTobinParadigmbypass the damn build bots
13:42NewTobinParadigmand just do it
13:43NewTobinParadigmsecurity demands it
13:43NewTobinParadigmfind a mac linux and windows person and tell them to build
13:43McXogium: the same with MichaelB, the dev of Toolbar Buttons
13:44Xogiumoh yeah, you think it&#39;s easy as that ? ... Just..
13:44* Xogium frowns
13:44Xogiumnvm, I&#39;m out of this
13:45NewTobinParadigmXogium: I know for a fact how &quot;easy&quot; it is
13:46NewTobinParadigmI like Xogium how you seem to assume things about me.
13:46NewTobinParadigmanyway guys
13:46NewTobinParadigmcome on
13:46NewTobinParadigmstep it up
13:46NewTobinParadigmDoes SeaMonkey on 52 work?
13:47NewTobinParadigmif so then get the builds out
13:48NewTobinParadigmalso you guys need to start at once working on a plan.. not thinking about considering getting an email written to work on a plan but actually GET GOING ON A PLAN to get your project off the Mozilla infra.. cause it will be ripped out from under you at a moments notice
13:48McNewTobinParadigm: please calm down a little bit :-)
13:49NewTobinParadigmHi Mc
13:49Mchi Tobin
13:49NewTobinParadigmHow are you?
13:51frg_awayAll trees build. 2.51 and 2.52 have problems but mostly work. Built an ESR 2.49.1 last week. Its just building/distribution via the official channels which is fubar.
13:52McNewTobinParadigm: thanks, how are you? hm, i&#39;m worried about Ratty not being here for so long now
13:53NewTobinParadigmMy frustration comes from it takeing this project months to do anything.. especially given everyone here has known for literally years this could happen and we knew for sure months before anyone on the outside picked up that Mozilla isn&#39;t going to be Mozilla anymore
13:53NewTobinParadigmI am worried about Ratty as well
13:54NewTobinParadigmI am also conserned that Neil hasn&#39;t been around save popping up a couple times for over a year
13:54NewTobinParadigmI am also conserned about this project
13:54NewTobinParadigmvery conserned
13:57McNewTobinParadigm: you know about all the dev and rel changes and bugs. makes it not easy
13:57Mcdevs are very engaged
13:58NewTobinParadigmI know what you guys are facing
13:58NewTobinParadigmand no it isn&#39;t easy but it has to be done
13:59NewTobinParadigmbypassing the build bot infra is a good way to cut out some of those issues
13:59frg_awayIn the end its just a piece of software we all like love or hug in our dreams. If it goes away it would be a shame but if the community as a whole does not support it it will. The current maintainers try what they can and that&#39;s it. On the bright side I saw some new interest i n the last weeks. We will see what comes of it.
13:59NewTobinParadigmand focus on actually doing the code getting it ready
14:00frg_awayBelieve me this has been discussed and is under consideration.
14:00NewTobinParadigmfrg_away: it is too late for a wait and see.. Decisions need to be made and actions need to be taken at once
14:00NewTobinParadigmI said as much 5 months ago
14:00NewTobinParadigmand a year ago
14:00NewTobinParadigmand 2 years ago
14:00NewTobinParadigmand 3 years ago
14:01NewTobinParadigmI&#39;ve never not been saying it actually
14:01Mchelps much though ;-)
14:01NewTobinParadigmof course.. I know a lot more than I did then
14:01NewTobinParadigmand that only strengthens my conviction on it
14:02NewTobinParadigmYou know what I been doing the past few years?
14:02NewTobinParadigmtonymec does
14:03NewTobinParadigmbut does anyone else?
14:05NewTobinParadigmI was involved in an independent project that was one step up from just another rebuild.. I helped put things in motion to move from that to full independently diverging project.. Helping build infra.. getting things sorted.. supporting a growing project.. No not everything is perfect but it was done from almost nothing and then I look back to my good and dear friends at the SeaMonkey project and with comparitively every resource in
14:05NewTobinParadigmthe world.. you guys are faultering.. The leadership is almost non-existant and there isn&#39;t a real stratagy for the future.. and it upsets me deeply
14:06NewTobinParadigmand I want to help
14:06NewTobinParadigmhell i always wanted to help
14:07NewTobinParadigmbut was generally prevented by apathy and fear over years.. which is why I had to look elsewhere.. Now that the path has been taken once elsewhere.. There is no longer any valid excuse why you guys can&#39;t follow a similar one
14:08NewTobinParadigmso.. What is the hold up?
14:09NewTobinParadigmAll it takes is a repo.. a couple of people who can build.. your wealth of indepth experence and one server to get you started
14:09NewTobinParadigmI likewise said as much again and again
14:10frg_awayFor starters: If everything on the other side of the pond is so peachy why did you need to fork Gecko again?
14:11NewTobinParadigmare you talking about Tycho?
14:12NewTobinParadigmif you are.. it is simple.. ES6 Promises
14:12NewTobinParadigmthat&#39;s it
14:14frg_awayYes and in a year or so it will be outdated again. SeaMonkey is mostly a frontend and adding us to the project will not get you backend support.
14:14NewTobinParadigmfrg_away: I didn&#39;t say work with them.. I said do something
14:15NewTobinParadigmalso your facts are uncoordinated
14:15NewTobinParadigmmy point of course is.. Pale Moon did something unprecidented without much resources and learning very much on the way.. I expect better from a project that has everything going for it already
14:16NewTobinParadigmfrg_away: shouldn&#39;t listen to Mozillazine Propiganda
14:21NewTobinParadigmfrg_away: did you feel I was attacking SeaMonkey.. Is that why you felt you needed to attack Pale Moon.. cause that isn&#39;t what I am trying and have been for years trying to do.
14:22NewTobinParadigmAs anyone else knows.. I love the Suite
14:27frg_awayI don&#39;t listen to propaganda. I can make my own :) I concur that 2017 is critical and I will try to keep the project afloat as long as I can but the project is not my life.
14:27frg_awayI didn&#39;t think you tried to attack SeaMonkey but you just need to understand that there is a limit what the current staff can do. Too many people left and all what you said may even be true. But yelling and shouting won&#39;t produce results. The fact is that there are internal discussions already. Not fast and maybe too late but the points are on the table. In the end it might not be enough....
14:27frg_away...And until you have a firm plan its better to continue with what you have and we have a fubar infra which still is able to produce builds.
14:30NewTobinParadigmWhat you guys need is strong leadership and a vision.. I personally could provide both of those but I am not gonna stage a coup and at this point in my life I am not prepared to take on such a responsiblity.. Also, it shouldn&#39;t be nessisary.
14:31NewTobinParadigmHowever, I can impart my experences to you guys and provide an independent viewpoint for consideration
14:31NewTobinParadigmthere is a tendency to lose perspective without outside evaluation
14:32NewTobinParadigmcontinuing to exist isn&#39;t a goal
14:32NewTobinParadigmnot one that can do justice to this project
14:33NewTobinParadigmmoving forward toward independence and progressing is a good goal
14:33NewTobinParadigmThat is a goal worthy of your users, the community, this project and its history
14:49frg_awaytonymec|away Got your email. Will look into it when I am back home.
15:06Mchm, still doesn&#39;t load here. it should though if i understand it right
15:06thebotBug 1347863 nor, --, ---, hmitsch, NEW, OVH Renewal: Hosting extension for 3 months (March 2017)
15:47Mcok, could need an extra payment. the site isn&#39;t mentioned in 1347863, just in 1347753
17:42Mcworks now
19:58ThurahTthis is so true: &quot;The movement to browser agnosticism and web standards has failed. As in, websites should not support browsers, but web standards (which include graceful degradation).&quot; - BenoitRen
19:59ThurahTI am actually reading the forums for once. I should be better at it.
17 Mar 2017
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Last message: 158 days and 2 hours ago