mozilla :: #firefox

9 Sep 2017
00:15rhzCaspy7: no, I didn't delete all
00:21rhzgood night guys
02:50meurerI'm currently running Firefox Beta, but thinking of going over to Nightly. Anyone that runs the current nightly care to share their thoughts on it?
02:50meurerI'm fine with some bugs, as long as it works for the most part
02:51azakimeurer: is it because you want to use 57 as early as possible? or because you want to stay on the nightly train?
02:51azaki57 is going to move to beta at the end of the month
02:51meurerazaki, I just want to be cool, yeah
02:52MossopNightly is really pretty stable these days. You will occasionally see minor bugs but I haven't seen anything major in a long time
02:52azakiwell, i haven't run nightly much, i only recently installed it and used it a bit.
02:52azakione thing to keep in mind is that there's probably more churn in nightly than there has ever been before. =o
02:53azakisince they are modernizing the engine now.
02:53meurerazaki, ``churn'' ?
02:53meurerIs Servo still maintained as a standalone project?
02:53azakimeurer: means lots of changes, more than usual. 57 is kind of a milestone release.
02:54Caspy7meurer: I echo what Mossop said. I use Nightly as my daily driver
02:54azakiyes, servo is still standalone. but bits and pieces are being merged into firefox little by little.
02:54Caspy7meurer: yes. Servo is still under active development
02:54meurerCaspy7, Mossop, azaki Alright, moving to nightly :)
02:55Caspy7meurer: worth mentioning that it's not advisable to go "backwards" using the same profile
02:55Caspy7so, 57 -> 56 or 55 for instance
02:55meurerIs the idea to entirely replace C/C++ code with Rust (someday)?
02:56Caspy7hm, don't know if that's explicitly stated or not
02:56meurerCaspy7, I'm on 56, so I can go forwards without issues, right? At least nothing happened when I went from stable to beta
02:56azakimeurer: forward is fine.
02:56azakijust don't look back ;o
02:56Caspy7meurer: forwards to 57, yes
02:56azakiif you look back.. you may turn to stone ;O
02:57Caspy7there's a *lot* of C/C++ in Firefox
02:57azakiwait, i got my biblical reference wrong...
02:57azakiif you look back, you'll turn into a pillar of salt.
02:57Caspy7I don't know if full replacement is a stated goal or not, but incremental is, especially when adding new pieces
02:58meurerCaspy7, I've started using Rust recently for a hobby OS project, it's really nice IMHO, that's why I was asking
02:59Caspy7yeah, Mozilla is quite committed to it and it putting more and more
03:03Caspy7meurer: I"m not a developer but have been watching it from early on along with Servo. It's been interesting to see what's gone on and how the community has grown/evolved
03:05azakirust is definitely a gamble.. it will be interesting to see how it turns out long-term.
03:05meurerCaspy7, It's great, I just love the fact that it's not garbage-collected as opposed to Go
03:05azakii know other projects are using it, but for most people firefox will likely be the only thing on their pc that uses it, but i'll be interested to see if that changes and other huge/popular desktop apps start to use it.
03:05Caspy7azaki: I think you need to update your data a bit. It is not a gamble
03:05meurerAnd as it evolves is becomes more and more a viable alternative to C/X++
03:06meurerazaki, I'd say Rust is well past it's ``gamble'' stage
03:06azakiCaspy7: that's subjective and depends on the criteria.
03:06Caspy7azaki: so was your original assertion
03:06azakibut then i don't have a high opinion of other "new" languages either, like 'go' or others.
03:07meurerIt's a well established language, though it's age (or lack of it) is still a burden right now
03:07azakiCaspy7: i didn't claim it was objective though.
03:07* Caspy7 sighs
03:07meurerfor e.g. a change just broke my allocator and now my kernel no longer compiles
03:07azakimeurer: as i said, i'm skeptical of new things in general, to me even go is niche.
03:08meurerbecause they changed how you declare an allocator fore no_std builds
03:08meurerI got quite angry about that
03:08meurerGo *is* niche, so is Rust IMHO
03:08azakiand apple's pet projects like 'swift' are even worse... objective c is also annoying since it's only a first class citizen on their platform.
03:08meurerThe only thing not niche these days is web :P
03:08Caspy7azaki: actually, more people probably have it on their computer becaue they have dropbox installed. If you have dropbox, you have Rust
03:08meurer(partially joking)
03:09meurerCaspy7, I thought Dropbox was Python-based?
03:09Caspy7they're a big python shop, but that's not all they do, and they replaced the stuff down at the bottom of the stack with rust on the server too
03:09Caspy7as in, the code pushing bits around in storage
03:10Caspy7the most important and necessary to be reliable and fast thing they do
03:10azakimeurer: yeah... but like, rust is the first language that is *really* targetting c/c++ honestly. every other language has typically gone high level. what i'm waiting to see is if rust can actually significantly chew into C++'s market, like will huge ISVs start using it instead of C++
03:10meurerThat explains why they have a GH repo with a memory allocator for no_std
03:10meurerI was thinking of using it in my kernel
03:11meurerazaki, Go and Rust compete IMO, but I agree with you. I think the move away from C/C++ will be a long, and painful one if it ever truly happens
03:11Caspy7azaki: you'll be waiting a while, that will take some time to see results as most companies aren't going to just pull out C that's already working immediately
03:11Caspy7that's not the definition of it being a viable language however
03:12meurerC just works well when it's well written, the problem is writing good C can be really hard
03:12azakiCaspy7: well, it's more about whether they do what mozilla is doing now, and start integrating rust into their codebases along with the old stuff i guess.
03:12meurerI find myself using Rust where I would previously have used Python these days though
03:12Caspy7some big companies are coming to rely on it
03:13Caspy7also the long list
03:13meurerI wish Google would drop Go and go work on Rust :P
03:13meurerScrew garbage collectors
03:14azakiCaspy7: and i didn't say it wasn't viable, but it's just that there are complex issues involved in open source. like, i've seen how it can be annoying to find a project you're interested in contributing to, only to find out it uses some eccentric language like ocaml, or haskell, or whatever else, and then you're like "why isn't this just in C or C++ ... (or python if it's a more high level project)"
03:14azakimozilla is a huge organization that has a lot of it's own paid developers
03:14azakiand their engineers designed the language. so that's not as much of an issue. but yeah.
03:15meurerazaki, I meant just so that there was more unity
03:16azakiinteresting is that even when i see some people proposing using rust, they still want to use the C ABI, which is interesting. =o
03:16Caspy7azaki: well, it's not just a Mozilla thing now. A lot more than Mozilla is using it and the Rust community is thriving and growing. So I don't think it's at all a risky thing. Doesn't mean it fits every purpose. Not arguing that
03:17Caspy7Rust works well in combo with C so you don't have to dump all of your code
03:17meurerCaspy7, Rust still makes some breaking changes that drives me bananas sometimes, that's my only negative experience with the langauge
03:18azakiCaspy7: here's an interesting thought experiment though, if one of the future C++ standards starts adding rust-like functionality, which i think has been talked about a bit.. then i wonder how that turns out in the end.
03:19Caspy7that's been discussed plenty on /r/rust
03:19meurer azaki, I wonder if C++ could have something like ownership
03:19Caspy7if I were a dev I could probably rehash some of it, there are lots of complications
03:20meurerWhat I like abotu Rust is that it *makes* you write good code
03:20Caspy7meurer: that's the distinct impression I've gotten
03:20meurerThe compiler tries really hard to not let you do shady shit
03:20Caspy7that Rust code is just more likely to be better
03:21meurerin comparison gcc will smile gladly while allowing you to to lick a car battery
03:22azakiyeah.. other languages have static analysis, but rust is designed to make static analysis easier, so compilers can just catch those errors at compile time.
03:23azakibut it kind of makes sense given that the whole purpose of C was essentially to do what the "unsafe" rust subset does.
03:23azakibasically, C is 'portable assembly'
03:23azakidesigned for ultra fast low level stuff.
03:24azakithere's actually a technique called formal verification that can let you verify that your code is correct, kind of like a math proof.
03:24meurerI've had to write some evil stuff in C for school, it wasn't fun
03:24meurerno libraries outside of std allowed either
03:24azakiso far i think the seL4 microkernel is the only major project to have been formally verified though.
03:24azakistill pretty impressive
03:25azakiwell in the end, no matter what abstractions you use, you still get compiled into "evil stuff" in the end =p
03:25azakieverything turns into machine code.
03:26meurerMy CArch class had us design a MIPS-like CPU in VHDL once
03:26meurerSince there was no assembler, we all had our own ISA's after all, you had to do by hand the work of the assembler
03:26azakimeurer: oh, is it DLX ?
03:27meurerand then write the instructions in binary straight to the FPGA
03:27meurerWas horrible
03:27azakii've heard there's a mips-like arch used in academia to study cpu design called DLX
03:27meurerNot DLX, it was something the prof wrote, he called it P3 but it's largely unknown
03:28meurerIt was nice actually, the docs he wrote were really helpful
03:28azakiah. there's actually an MIT textbook/course where you build your own CPU arch in an emulator, and then build the tools and the OS to run on it
03:28azakipiece by piece
03:28meurerazaki, Name? I'd be interested in that
03:29meurerI had a lot of fun in the class
03:29meurerEven when I was getting my ass kicked trying to hand-optimize code for the pipeline
03:29azakii forget... but i found out about it because of that guy that built a cpu in minecraft many years ago. the cpu he built was actually the one in that MIT course
03:30meurerazaki, Find out and if you ever come to Santa Barbara, CA I buy you a beer :P
03:30azakii think it's this
03:32meurerazaki, If you ever pass by email me at meurerbernardo[at]gmail[dot]com :)
03:32meurerThanks for the link
03:33azakithere's the minecraft story
03:33azakiand it links to the book. =p
03:33est31the thing is that most new desktop software isnt written any more
03:33est31because its all in the cloud
03:33est31and the desktop software that gets written (as in started from scratch)
03:34est31is usually in electron
03:34est31or some other web framework
03:34azakiwell, on linux we still do desktop software. =p
03:34est31there is simply no need for most software to not be in javascript any more
03:35meurerI wish there was a good non-electron text editor around
03:35meurerBoth VSCode and Atom are electron based
03:35meurerJavascript is a dreadful language
03:35The0x539notepad++ just needs a nicer UI
03:35Caspy7meurer: I hope some cools Xi-based editors will come about
03:35est31azaki: but which ISV develops for desktop linux
03:35est31meurer: I'm a kate user
03:35The0x539sublime's business model pushes me away from so much as trying it
03:36azakiest31: valve. =3
03:36azakiit's still software!
03:36est31... sort of
03:36azakiand valve is totally independent.
03:36meurerCaspy7, Xi-based ?
03:36azakiand they're totally a vendor, too.
03:36The0x539I still really like scintilla
03:36est31azaki: guess what, steam store bases on a chromium fork xD
03:36meurerest31, Kate? It seems a bit too stripped down, am I wrong?
03:37est31its stripped down compared to atom yes
03:37est31but enough for me
03:37est31I have grep
03:37azakiwell, yeah.. the store.. because it's a web page already. =p
03:37est31dont need goto definition
03:37azakii mean why design it twice?
03:37meurerThe0x539, Yeah, sublime seems nice but their business model is a no-no for em
03:38azakialthough they should probably be using some caching tricks or something in their desktop client to speed it up... i find the steam store slow-ish in their steam client. =o
03:38meurerest31, I run a nicely configured Vim right now, and VScode from LaTeX (used Atom before)
03:38meurer*for LaTeX
03:38Caspy7meurer: A google engineer built/is building an editor backend in Rust. It's highly parallel/concurrent and wouldn't really be viable in C.
03:38est31meurer: heard of gnome-builder?
03:39est31Xi is only partially implemented in Rust
03:39est31the other half is python
03:39est31or at least afaik
03:39meurerest31, Have not, what is it?
03:39meurerCaspy7, Oh, nice!
03:39Caspy7he's scratching an itch with it because it's able to handle *huge* files, which is something a lot of editors choke on
03:40meurerCaspy7, I just use less when I need to read a huge file
03:40meurerand vi
03:40azakieverything is viable in C if you have enough time ;o
03:40azakiCaspy7: unix stuff. =o
03:40azakiless is like more, only less.
03:40Caspy7ah, it's all clear now
03:41meurerCaspy7, it's like more, yeah
03:41est31but better
03:41Caspy7"no no, clear is something else entirely!"
03:41meurer(Really, man less)
03:41The0x539est31: aw man
03:41meurerless is great though
03:41meurerfor viewing and grepping files
03:41azakii don't know if caspy has ever used unix/linux =o
03:41The0x539kate doesn't have a dark theme for the editor chrome
03:41azakii haven't seen them mention it.
03:42est31the less grep command is even available in firefox
03:42est31its so popular
03:42azakiit's hard to explain more/less if someone isn't familiar with terminals and stdin/stdout .. but yeah.
03:43azakibasically in a terminal, when you list the contents of a file, and it floods the screen with text. you can use a program like 'more'
03:43The0x539"vomit text into less and less'll spit it out more gently"
03:43meurerCaspy7, Was already there, checkign it out now
03:43azakito stop the text from scrolling and just hit enter to see more of it
03:43meurerDoes it have language server support?
03:43azakiand less does the same but works a bit better.
03:43azakiand it's a pun.
03:44azakibecause unix people love puns and wordplay.
03:44est31meurer: at this point, its still vaporware
03:44est31it barely can do anything
03:44meurerest31, Xi or Language servers?
03:44Caspy7I found some of his goals for Xi pretty interesting
03:44est31very early on for xi
03:44azakiwhich is why we have an image editor called "The GIMP" >.>
03:45The0x539and then the GNU acronym
03:45The0x539and then there's the mess that is the etymology of any *nix name
03:46azakithat one is somewhat amusing though, and isn't as user visible so doesn't matter as much.
03:46azakibut to have a major program that people use called "gimp" XD
03:47azakiThe0x539: did you hear about PipeWire ? it's supposed to be a replacement of PulseAudio, Jack, as well as being able to handle video also.. i think it also replaces gstreamer.. but anyways.. they were going to call it "Pinos" at first...... XD
03:47azakibefore switching to "PipeWire"
03:47azakiIt wasn't him.
03:47meurerNever heard of PipeWire
03:48meurerHonestly PulseAudio is a mess, and I can't get Jack to work
03:48azakiIt's actually a gstreamer dev that is working on it. lennart isn't involved in pipewire.
03:48azakii think lennart isn't even involved in pulseaudio nowadays though.. he works on systemd fulltime. =o
03:48meurerand Gstreamer screws up my compilation of things ever since the from from 0.10
03:48meurer(Arch Linux)
03:49azakii still don't fully get pipewire, but i think the idea is to create a framework that basically lets you 'connect' things together the way jack can.
03:49azakiand then there is a plugin system
03:49azakiand i think that may be where the mixing part comes in.. (like for audio for instance)
03:50azakibut it's a bit confusing to understand since it's new and stuff. and it's a very different kind of design than any other.
03:50The0x539I mean I don't follow linux backend stuff too much
03:50azakiso you have a generic framework letting you connect audio/video inputs and outputs and so on, perhaps kind of like taking the concept of stdin/stdout and applying it to audio and video. that is sort of how i *think* it works. =o
03:51The0x539I don't quite understand, like, those infographics with the various boxes organized to show system architecture
03:51azakiThe0x539: i understand some of those, but not others. it depends. =p
03:51meurerThe0x539, As a systems programmer, IMHO those generally suck
03:52meurerThey serve more to vizualize the scope of an OS rather than to understand how it works
03:52azakiX11 for instance, is hard to understand in block diagram form... lol
03:52The0x53990% of the code I'd say I've written is Lua
03:52azakiwayland is easier to wrap your head around.
03:53meurerI run wayland, it works really well nowadays
03:53azakimeurer: it can still help you with understanding the components. this is especially valuable in linux where things are often developed by different entities.
03:53azakiso like you know how things are layered together.
03:53meurerazaki, Fair enough
03:58Caspy7est31: too bad about the lack of progress on Xi. The author's caliber and designs/goals got me interested to see where it will go
03:59meurerCaspy7, est31 Let's hope the situation changes
04:00est31Caspy7: its definitely a great project, but its far too early on to use it
04:00Caspy7was just thinking maybe would leave a post to see where things are at, but I don't want to be annoying and a more savvy person might be able to discern from gh
04:03est31thats how the gtk frontend of xi looks like atm
04:03est31not very... feature complete
04:04azakilooks almost like gedit.
04:07meurerazaki, Yeah, that's not good
04:07azakii actually like gtk headerbars though.
04:08azakithey look slick.
04:08azakiempty titlebars are kind of silly and a waste of space.
04:08azakiI love firefox's photon ui for that reason, totally eliminates the titlebar. =3
04:09azakiand this time there's a redhat dev working to ship that on the linux side as well.
04:09azakiso that will be pretty cool if it makes it in time for 57.
04:09azakibut it may end up being in 58 instead, not sure.
04:10est31I want only the window title in the titlebar
04:10est31and close, minimize, maximize
04:10est31but it will fortunately be configurable
04:10est31so idc
04:10azakii guess it depends if it gets done by the end of the month or if it gets uplifted.
04:10est31I do think that the time is better spent on other linux things
04:10est31like better KDE integration
04:10est31or video decoding using vaapi
04:11azakihm, i didn't see them talk about configurability of this. but perhaps linux will have some unique options there.
04:11azakiwhat does "better kde integration" mean?
04:11est31azaki: afaik there is an option for windows already
04:11azakihow is firefox not integrating into kde
04:12firebotBug 140751 NEW, Integrate Mozilla with KDE
04:12firebotBug 1304650 NEW, Firefox use wrong default applications to open files in KDE5
04:12est31it seriously asks me to open a pdf file with GIMP
04:13est31and when I want to select a different program, it opens a file manager
04:13est31isnt that funy
04:13azakiand it may be much to expect a redhat dev to work on that. i think what the titlebar thing is higher priority for a few reasons, one is wayland support (which requires CSDs), and the other is that even if you want to show it when windowed, you may want it to hide when maximized, so this work is part of that.
04:13est31the second bug is more an issue of my distro though
04:13est31(the "opens with a file manager" bug)
04:14est31my distro still builds firefox with gtk2
04:14azakiuhm, isn't this stuff an xdg standard? =\
04:14est31gtk3 builds of firefox have a dedicated application chooser
04:14est31azaki: and kde doesnt care about the xdg standard
04:14est31it stores preferences in its own format
04:14azakiso you want firefox to fix kde's bugs for them?
04:14est31xdg-open only works because it has a special path for kde
04:15est31azaki: general KDE applications work perfectly
04:16azakiyeah but there's a spec that they aren't following..
04:16azakii think DEs really should be following certain specs like this.
04:16azakithey also seem to be dragging their feet with xdg_shell on wayland.. which has been quite annoying.
04:16est31I'm not sure whether thats 100% of the situation
04:16est31because the author of the xdg spec
04:17azakiyou mean jasper?
04:17est31is also the author of the kde tool to get application prefferences
04:17azakii thought you meant xdg shell
04:17azakinevermind, it's late.
04:18est31no idea about xdg shell
04:18azakiest31: there's another incompatibility though... that mpv devs ran into with kde.. =\
04:18azakithe screensaver inhibition
04:18azakiapparently there's some weird kdeisms that prevent that from being cross-DE capable as well...
04:19* est31 shrugs
04:19est31cross DE linux support has improved over the last 10 years
04:19est31I think over the next 10 years it will improve more
04:19est31Caspy7: azaki: btw did you know of the good news of the deep speech project?
04:20azakiwell.. yes.. i've been using linux for 17 years.. i remember back when they had different clipboards and different application menus.. where gnome would place kde entries in a "kde" submenu, and vice-versa...
04:20Caspy7est31: please enlighten
04:20est316.48% Word error rate
04:20est31thats quite good
04:20azakiwhich was so ridiculous, because basically they had different specs, but they still had to implement eachother's specs.... to place the entries in a submenu.. lol
04:21est31Caspy7: also, they'll publish a model soon
04:21Caspy7est31: this is for recognition?
04:21est31so 6.48% of words are recognized wrongly
04:22est31but the remaining 94% are correct
04:22Caspy7est31: don't suppose we know what Google and Apple are doing?
04:22Caspy7for that number
04:22est31there is a site that collects info about this
04:22est31lemme check
04:23est31relevant table:
04:23est31seems google/amazon/apple dont publish any numbers
04:24Caspy7yeah, kinda what I figured
04:24azakinow that flash support is being killed off, what i wanna see is one of the alternatives get some more resources thrown at it.. either shumway, or lightspark, whatever.
04:25Caspy7if there's anyone I'd expect to be at the forefront, I'd bet it's Google
04:25azakifloss speech recognition is cool too though. =p
04:26azakii remember wanting that like 10 years ago or so
04:26Caspy7oh, most definitely
04:31meurerY'all know in Chrome how you can search a website straight from the address/url bar via OpenSearch pressing tab? Is there a way to do that in Firefox? I really, really miss that feature
04:32est31no mention of the dataset
04:32Caspy7est31: seems to indicate just over 95%
04:33est31humans seem to have a rate of 95% as well
04:33est31so, another thing where humans are not better than machines any more :)
04:33Caspy7reminds me, I need to buy a shotgun
04:34Caspy7and a grenade launcher
04:34Caspy7meurer: that wouldn't be native to Firefox, maybe an addon
04:34azakirobots will have laser canons though =O
04:34azakithey will target you from orbit
04:34azakiwith surgical precision
04:35meurerCaspy7, I could do with an addon, I'd just like that feature; it made things much faster
04:35azakiand then collect your remains to use in the paperclip factory =o
04:35Caspy7jokes on them, I've already poisoned my remains
04:36The0x539with what, gallium?
04:37Caspy7The0x539: oh, I guess I was hoping cholesterol was toxic to them...
04:38azakiThe0x539: well if the paperclips are all greasy... they'll grease up your papers and stuff =o
04:39The0x539all the better ( )
04:39Caspy7their plans will clearly be ruined by this
04:45est31idk... if I were a machine, I'd nuke the hell out of this planet
04:45est31much easier to deal with
04:47est31I'd just have to wait a few millenia and earth would look like it were new
04:48azakii don't think machines would have the same definition of "easy" as we do.
04:48Caspy7est31: I think it's a fun thought experiment to think from the perspective of an alien race that wants to wipe out humanity completely but doesn't want to risk doing it with biological means
04:48azakithey'd likely measure energy efficiency.
04:49est31azaki: good point
04:49azakiand i think "nuking" would be seen as a fairly wasteful process in terms of the energy output of a nuclear weapon.
04:49MardegOlivia Neutron-bomb
04:49azakicompared to for instance, using nanotechnology to just harvest all of the materials on the planet.
04:49est31but I dont think that machines would have a simplistic "energy efficiency" metric
04:49est31most likely they'd have some complicated metric
04:50est31idk, like an advanced chess or go engine
04:50azakiwell it depends what they were programmed to do. which is actually one of the huge problems with AI.
04:50Caspy7you know folks, it's possible we've gone a little off topic...
04:50est31AI wont be human
04:52azakiCaspy7: one of the most interesting ideas i ever saw about aliens wanting to wipe out humanity, was i think in stargate, where they essentially posed as our friends, and then gave us health care technology that somehow makes us sterile. =o
04:52azakiso they just play the waiting game
04:52* est31 shrugs.... its definitely something to hold out for, but I think most of the problems in the remaining part of this century will be society problems
04:52Caspy7azaki: that was a good story arc
04:52meurerDamn, Firefox 57 is really easy on memory
04:53Mardegazaki: the episode "2010" I believe :)
04:53Caspy7meurer: do you restore tabs on start?
04:53est31has anyone of you seen "children of men"?
04:53Caspy7Mardeg: there were two connected ones actually
04:53meurerCaspy7, Yeah
04:53Mardegyeah, was the other one also a year?
04:54azakiest31: there's also the possibility that we will augment our own intelligence to be comparable to any AI.
04:54azakihonestly, i'd be comfortable if we could start by augmenting the intelligence of the average voter.. =p
04:55The0x539est31: and then there's Logan aka children of x-men
04:55Caspy7meurer: one thing new is that unloaded tabs now have no browser object, so this reduces memory, they are basically just line items, very small
04:56meurerThat's awesome, I had lazy tab loading enables on 56 to get a similar effect
04:56est31azaki: as I've said, most of the problems ahead are of a societal nature
04:57est31like we could switch off oil completely in the next 20 years or so, but there needs to be a strong will to do so
04:57Caspy7Mardeg: 2001
04:57azakiest31: i pray every night to our lord and savior elon musk
04:58Caspy7meurer: yes, it was introduced in, well, I know it's in 56. I forget if it's in 55
04:58Mardegah :)
04:59azakiest31: it does seem to be happening though, more than a few countries have now announced roadmaps to cease the sale of gas-only cars over the next decade or two.
04:59meurerIt's *amazing* how much faster and easier on memory 57 is then chrome
04:59meurerI'm really just in awe
04:59est31azaki: not sure how much of the stuff he's doing is honestly meant, and how much is actually just a glorified self promotion to make people love his often inferior products
04:59azakithat of course means hybrids though, not just EVs.
04:59Caspy7well, it's always been better on memory than Chrome :)
05:00azakiest31: eh, i dunno about inferior.. what other EV is better? i can't name a car i'd rather own than a model 3 right now..
05:00meurerCaspy7, Yes, but it's betterest now :P
05:00Caspy7est31: I'm of both minds, acknowledging the skepticism and such, but also think he's been a disruptive factor in the EV space
05:00est31shitty customer support, a murderous "assisted driving" mode, it rains into some cars
05:01est31then there is this overvaluation of his company
05:01est31but yes, he definitely shifted attention, and that is a definitively positive effect
05:01azakithe data i saw showed that the assisted driving mode has not caused accidents that human drivers would have prevented though. =o
05:02est31azaki: the issue is that people use the mode as if it were fully autonomous
05:02est31even if they wanted to be ready, its simply not how human attention works
05:02azakiand overvaluation isn't necessarily bad, it could go one of two ways. either it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, or yes it could be a stock bubble. but i think gambles like this are necessary when you're fighting big oil.
05:03Mardegpeople are always the issue, what's new?
05:04est31either way, the german car industry totally ignores electrical vehicles and happily produces petroleum burning ones
05:04est31and of course they lobby politicians to not switch to electrical vehicles
05:05est31very sad to see the industry ignore all issues
05:05azakiwhat gives me hope is that even china has started to get serious on solar. spurred by protests about the smog problem in the country.
05:05Mardegbahn bahn bahn, it's a Autobahn
05:05azakiwhich is important because like the only thing authoritarian regimes fear, is an uprising. lol
05:06azakiit will be the most incredible irony if china ends up saving us from climate change.... lol
05:07azakispeaking of climate change... how about them hurricanes. =o
05:10MardegThis just in: Florida Man arrives at airport without a ticket, brings a dozen Llamas to be evacuated
05:14azakiif it was alpacas, maybe.
05:14azakialpacas are cuter.
05:15azakiknow the difference, it can save your life.
05:16sysKinheyhey ~ anyone knows why would my android firefox fail to update to the latest version? play is downloading the package three times and then says it failed to update
05:17Caspy7sysKin: I don't. You may also try #mobile
05:17sysKinCaspy7: right, I'll try, thanks ~
05:21azakisysKin: there's a joke about 'denial play' in there somewhere...
07:53Timvdeazaki: I'd rather have a Model S than a Model 3 ;)
07:54TimvdeOr one of those ridiculously expensive Lamborghinis, which I can then sell, buy a Model 3 and still have tons of money :P
07:56est31I'd have a car made of pure diamonds
07:56est31useless as a car
07:56est31but I could sell it
07:56est31in pieces
07:58TimvdeGood point!
08:09TimvdeSooo, I got in the Search Shield Study, which is one of the few areas I really do *not* want to participate in
08:10TimvdeThe concept of a single bar for search and navigation is fundamentally flawed for me
08:10TimvdeI could just disable the add-on, but I'd like to also share feedback. Does anyone know where to do that?
08:10est31its okay for me
08:10est31I have autocompletions disabled
08:11Timvde(I spent way too much time finding out why on earth my search bar disappeared by the way...)
08:16TimvdeGotcha. If anyone asks: just disable the add-on in about:addons and it'll bring you to a feedback page :)
08:24nicknick zomberi
10:40mib_wsrungHi when I run $ hg pull inbound I get a warning transaction abort! and this message:abort: HTTP request error (incomplete response; expected 5921 bytes got 2079)
10:41mib_wsrungI just need to update the code to the latest version ... I did a clone before but I have made some changes and I want to just scrap those and just update to the latest build
13:10hbarnumHello all. Are there any firefox extension gurus available to help a new person to get pointed in the right direction? I was hoping to make a minor firefox add on that would help me at work (for personal/private use), but I must admit I'm a novice.
13:16est31hbarnum: join #webextensions
13:30azakiTimvde: While the S is definitely more luxurious (especially with that new M3-like front bumper... mmm), I actually do like the styling of the 3.
13:30azakiAnd it's more in my price range. ;p
13:30TimvdeYes, the model 3 is definitely more affordable :P
13:31azakiit's too bad the 3 isn't a hatch. it "looks" like a hatchback but isnt.. lol
13:31azakiapparently they couldn't do that fancy roof otherwise. i think they wanted it to be a hatch though initially.
15:50Tonneswhy was bug 1392028 wontfixed with no apparent reason rather than marking it a regression?
15:50firebot UNCONFIRMED, FF 55 doesn't show table lines after first page for table that spans multiple pages
15:50Tonnesoh 57 only, but still
16:04Caspy7Tonnes: yeah, that was closed without reason which is unusual, but the reporter replied so have to see what the response is
16:06TonnesCaspy7: very well.. note that there are 2 support questions and 3 users apoart from the bug reporter, so that makes 4...
16:07Caspy7Tonnes: I would suggest commending and including the detail and maybe links to the support question about the same issue.
17:28ExtricatedHi all, I'm having a problem when I try to view certain sites in firefox
17:31firebotCaspy7: Welcome to #firefox! Just ask your question and someone should be with you shortly. If you don't get an answer after a while, you can try taking a look through the support site:
17:33azakihm, it seems some of the browser issues i was having have subsided since i stopped using ublock origin.. i wonder if it's just a coincidence.
17:33Caspy7azaki: what version of Firefox and do you have any legacy addons installed?
17:33azakiit may be a combination of the addon and the amount of tabs i have though..
17:34azakiCaspy7: nope. when i was having the issues, it was right after a profile refresh, and i had just installed ublock origin (webext)
17:34azakithen it glitched out and the addon stopped working while the session was still running, i dunno how or why
17:34Caspy7I have lots of tabs too
17:35azakiwell.. i havent counted them.. but i think i may have 500 or so at least, if not more..
17:35Caspy7azaki: was this recently? When gorhill rolled out the hybrid there were lots of issues
17:35Caspy7azaki: I have a similar number of tabs (more)
17:36azakiwell this wasn't the hybrid, since it said "compatible with 57+" which means it's pure webext
17:36azakirather than the hybrid one
17:36azakiwhich still should show up as legacy
17:36azakianyways, after the addon seemingly crashed and stopped working, i just uninstalled it.
17:37azakiand haven't reinstalled.. since then i havent had trouble restoring my session.
17:37azakithis is the same profile that i've been talking about for a week or two now btw, the one that i refreshed a second time, and it wasn